BSA Decisions Ngā Whakatau a te Mana Whanonga Kaipāho

Summary  

[This summary does not form part of the decision.]

The Authority has not upheld a complaint alleging an interview with Judith Collins breached the law and order standard. The interviewer asked Ms Collins to clarify what she meant when she said, regarding Police Minister Poto Williams, ‘I think a lot of people want to bottle her’. Ms Collins explained she meant Minister Williams should be kept in a bottle ‘like a genie in a bottle’. The line of questioning was reasonable in the context, and the item did not actively promote serious anti-social or illegal behaviour.

Not Upheld: Law and Order

The broadcast

[1]  On 4 August 2021, John MacDonald interviewed MP and National Party leader Judith Collins on his programme Canterbury Mornings with John MacDonald about comments Ms Collins had made regarding Labour MP and Police Minister Poto Williams:

Mr MacDonald:    Bottling…when you referred to the Police Minister, Poto Williams…When you said this, ‘Police Minister Poto Williams, isn't she great, I think a lot of people want to bottle her.’ What did you mean by that?

Ms Collins:           Oh John, that is entirely out of context and you know it is. I then went on to say, when people went, oh, well, as in like a genie in the bottle…

Mr MacDonald:    What's your understanding of the term bottled? Because people calling the show this morning have different ideas?

Ms Collins:           Well, I was talking about a genie in a bottle. I'm not somebody who thinks of a violent method. And as I made that very clear. As for Poto Williams and her feigned upset yesterday, two weeks after I made the comment about her being a little genie in the bottle. And we should, you know, pop her out every now and again…quite clearly, she is the worst police minister I've ever seen…I was very clear… I was talking about a little genie in the bottle because that is what she is.

Mr MacDonald:    What did you mean by that?…

Ms Collins:           Oh, don't you know your history on genies? Well, she pops up. She promises all sorts of things, and she's going to fix this and that, and she never does… she does not back the police. She does not back their front line. She says she represents the people who are frightened of the police. What in the world is she doing? …I've been contacted by so many frontline officers who are disgusted that their minister can't even back them and care about their safety.

The complaint

[2]  Claire Scott complained the interview breached the law and order standard, as Mr MacDonald took the comments out of context. She submitted:

• ‘John manipulated the truth and [made] dramatic depictions throughout an interview that has a high level of public interest.’
• ‘In my opinion, this quote insinuates violence against the MP by the Leader of the Opposition, [which] was not common meaning and totally out of context…’
• ‘Why would a distinguished politician insinuate that she or others would want to “bottle” someone. As most people know, the common meaning “to bottle someone” is to put a broken glass in their face.’
• ‘I would suggest she meant that the MP opinions are so favourable or rare, should be preserved and able for wider distribution. Certainly not a glass in their face as per the common meaning and that John insinuated.’

The broadcaster’s response

[3]  NZME did not uphold the complaint for the following reasons:

• ‘In this case, we do not see how any of the host’s comments during this interview can be viewed as actively promoting serious anti-social or illegal behaviour.’
• ‘We note that it would appear Ms Collins was being deliberately provocative when she made the comment in relation to Minister Williams, pausing for effect before adding that she meant ‘bottle’ in the sense of genie in a bottle. Consequently, she would have expected to have been challenged on the comment during this interview.’
• ‘Ms Collins was given ample time to respond to each of the questions she was asked and to explain her position herself. As an experienced politician, Ms Collins is well-used to dealing with robust interviews.’

The standard

[4]  The law and order standard¹ states broadcasters should observe standards consistent with the maintenance of law and order, taking into account the context of the programme and the wider context of the broadcast. Its purpose is to prevent broadcasts that encourage viewers to break the law, or otherwise promote, glamorise or condone criminal activity.²

Our analysis

[5]  We have listened to the broadcast and read the correspondence listed in the Appendix.

[6]  The right to freedom of expression is an important right in a democracy and it is our starting point when considering complaints. We weigh the right to freedom of expression against the harm that may have potentially been caused by the broadcast. We may only intervene when the limitation on the right to freedom of expression is reasonable and justified, in light of actual or potential harm caused.

[7]  The context of the programme and the wider context of the broadcast are important considerations when assessing potential harm under each of the standards raised.³ We do not agree with the complainant’s interpretation of the interview. Ms Collins had received media attention the day before the interview for her comments regarding Minister Williams.⁴ It was reasonable for Mr MacDonald to raise this with Ms Collins and ask her to explain what she meant by the comments, which she did. Ms Collins made it clear the quote was taken out of context and what she meant was Minister Williams should be kept in a bottle, like a genie, and ‘we should…pop her out every now and again’. She went on to provide further criticism of Minister Williams. Listeners would have understood Ms Collins’ view on the comments, and her intention with them.

[8]  The broadcast did not actively promote serious antisocial or illegal behaviour,⁵ and was not inconsistent with the maintenance of law and order.

[9]  Finally, we note the submissions could be considered to impliedly raise issues under the accuracy standard. However, we do not consider the complaint would succeed under that standard either, as the broadcast is talkback to which the accuracy standard does not apply, and Ms Collins was given the opportunity to clarify her meaning.

For the above reasons the Authority does not uphold the complaint.
Signed for and on behalf of the Authority

Susie Staley
Acting Chair
27 October 2021    

Appendix

The correspondence listed below was received and considered by the Authority when it determined this complaint:

1  Claire Scott’s complaint to NZME – 4 August 2021

2  NZME’s decision on the complaint – 2 September 2021

3  Ms Scott’s referral to the Authority – 2 September 2021

4  NZME’s final comments – 28 September 2021

5  Ms Scott’s confirmation of no further comments – 30 September 2021

¹ Standard 5 of the Radio Code of Broadcasting Practice
²  Commentary: Law and Order, Broadcasting Standards in New Zealand Codebook, page 15
³ Guideline 5b
⁴ See for example: Anna Whyte “Collins ‘needs to think about what she says’ after bottle comment: Police Minister” 1 News (online ed, 3 August 2021); Bridie Witton “‘A lot of people want to bottle her’: Police Minister Poto Williams’ family upset by Judith Collins’ claim” Stuff (online ed, 3 August 2021); Zane Smith “Judith Collins dismisses 'nasty' interpretation of comment about people wanting to 'bottle' Police Minister Poto Williams” Newshub, (online ed, 3 August 2021)
⁵ Guideline 5a